Mission-driven careers with Amanda Silver

Mission-driven careers with Amanda Silver

>>Hello, and welcome back
to Careers Behind The Code. I’m with Amanda Silver today.>>Hi.>>Let’s get started. [MUSIC]>>Okay. So I’m here
with a Amanda Silver. Amanda, can you tell us a little bit
about what your role is here?>>I’m the Director of PM, for the Visual Studio
family of products.>>Okay, tell us a little bit
more about this. So when you say, the Visual Studio
family, what does that mean?>>Visual Studio on Windows.>>Okay.>>That is that user experience, Visual Studio for the Mac, and Visual Studio Code. Then there’s a bunch
of other projects that just roll in there like tooling for Windows development or the TypeScript programming
language, stuff like that.>>All right. So I’m
excited about this subject, because you are our first
Program Manager victim.>>Yes.>>So we’ve done
architects with Fowler.>>Yeah.>>Miguel is our entrepreneurial
multi-discipline leader, but you are our PM exemplar to start.>>Sure.>>So I want to talk a little bit about the things that
you’ve done across here. So right now, I guess we
should probably state that indeed that role is we’re
starting today in some ways, but you’re coming from long line of rolls around
Visual Studio, right?>>Right. I mean, I’ve worked in Developer Division at
Microsoft since 2001.>>You win. Yeah.>>So it’s been a while.>>Yeah.>>In that time, I’ve
worked on basically every. I’ve worked on the tooling for
basically every platform on Microsoft from SQL, to Xbox, to Office, to Azure, to Windows, as well Xamarin
and iOS. So really everything.>>If it’s a programming language and you can do it in Visual Studio, you’ve probably had your hands
on design at some point.>>Yeah, or just a platform. Even if it’s not necessarily about a particular
programming language.>>Got it. So in the sense of with TypeScript.
Really in that sense.>>No. So I mean, well, it depends.>>Sure.>>On what you want to talk about. In terms of my career, I started when I started at Microsoft in Runtime and
programming languages. So my first job was to
focus on COM Interop. How do you do PInvokes
way back in the day. That was the first six months
of my job here, maybe less.>>There’s someone today
working on PInvokes from VB.>>That’s right. Yeah. Then after a while I started to do just more of the programming language
for Visual Basic.NET. Then from there, I continued to snowball into
more and more things. So I did more programming language, and then I did more the overall development experience with the editor and the debugger. Then I was in charge of the entire
Visual Basic.NET experience. Then after that, then
I started to work on Office development and
the Office extensibility platform, and it just many
different dimensions.>>Got it. So you’ve taken
up broad generalist thing. You’ve done deep in
certain verticals, and then you’ve gone and take
broad platforms as always.>>Yeah, I’ve done deep
in programming languages, in API design, in code editing experiences
and debugging, and that stuff.>>Yeah.>>But then I’ve also done platform general stuff with respect to the various
platforms that we enable.>>In recent years, I think a lot your focus has been
more on cultural stuff, trying to drive culture
through the team.>>Yeah. I mean, I think that’s one. You talked about how I’m the first PM victim that
you have on this show. In a way, it’s well what
is the PM role about?>>Yeah.>>To me, I think about
my job as half anthropology, because I’m basically studying
developers and how they use tools, and how they use tools efficiently, and how they use tools inefficiently, and what motivates them to do
things, and half craftsmanship. Because I’m constantly
studying how they do it, and then try to figure out
how do we refined that. So I think a lot of what I’ve
done in any one of these roles, is that I’ve always tried to bring the customer’s perspective
to the conversation.>>I love the anthropology metaphor. I never thought of it that way.>>Yeah. So well, there might be other folks in
the room who are literally typing the code that does the thing
that we agree should work. I’m the person who in my team, are the people who go and
find the use cases and say whether or not this
will actually work for a real life customer
that’s out there are not.>>Great. Let’s talk
a little bit about that. How do you bring
customer into the team? How do you lead that?>>Yeah. Well, I mean first, we start everything that we might do with open-ended customer inquiry. So basically, we figure out well, who might be a target customer that we would want to
talk to or a target user? Because not all of them are
paying customers per se. That might be using this thing that we’re
thinking about in the future. When we start with that inquiry, we don’t even know necessarily what
we’re actually going to build. We might start a conversation
with someone about, “Hey, just what’s the hardest thing
that you have to deal with as a development manager
in an enterprise or as a data scientist in
academic research lab?” The reason I call it
customer led inquiry is because we go where
the customer leads us. So if for example
they say, “Hey look, collaboration on my team
is the biggest pain point. It’s really hard.” Then we’ll go and dig on
that until we figure out. Okay. Well, this is the very specific articulation of the problem that they’re
actually encountering.>>Got it.>>Here are a couple of
different solutions that we could maybe explore to
address that problem.>>Got it. All right. So let’s start breaking down how you
got to where you are.>>Okay.>>So right now you’re
the director of PM. So that means, you’re
a manager of managers.>>In some cases, yeah.>>Manager of Program Managers. So A, you’re a manager. B, you’re discipline is for you’ve
focused on Program Management.>>Yeah.>>You’ve done that
throughout your career.>>Yeah.>>You’ve always been
a Program Manager.>>Yeah.>>So let’s walk backwards and
let’s try to figure out where.>>From the beginning.>>Then let’s go from the end
towards the beginning.>>Okay.>>All right.>>Okay.>>Let’s see, what do you feel
was the last place where you had a major place where you had
to make either decision or where a big change came into you, and we’ll leave today out of it.>>The last change. I think that about three
or four years ago, we started on a customer
led inquiry journey, and that actually led to a stream of work that’s going to occupy us
for the next five or six years.>>By which you mean
an effort that you. Do you think this is an opportunity to jump in and learn a new thing?>>Yeah. I mean, in
a way it was exploring, what’s the white space opportunity for a development team and so
how could we address that?>>So was that a
new position than a new?>>It was less than new position, because at that time
I was really just doing the Visual Studio core product, I was doing Windows tooling, and it wasn’t as much about we’re coming out with
this next major version.>>Yeah.>>What’s going to be in
the next major version? It was more about what problems our customers having that
we could potentially solve.>>So did you see it is like.>>I didn’t really see it
as a pivot at the time. It just felt like a, let’s go figure out
what’s being underserved.>>What triggered the change? Is it you noticed something that
was changing inside the company? Is it we got this overall?>>I think there were
a couple of things. I mean, there’s always
business dimensions of this. So if we think about the market specifically for paid
developer tools, it’s actually been declining
over the past few years, and there’s a couple of
different reasons for that. Number 1 is with the rise of
the Cloud platforms a lot of tools are being. What’s the word?>>Commoditized.>>Not commoditized. There’s subsidies by
the Cloud providers to basically incent users to, well, to use their Cloud essentially. So that’s an aspect of it, but also there are dimensions
of commoditization where, look, the experience for
doing code editing has been known for 20-25 years. There’s a point at which
there’s a question around, well, what really is there
to differentiate on? So that’s part of what
led to this conversation. It’s, well, what are our opportunities for
product differentiation? How does the Cloud change the nature of what
developers need to do? Then also just thinking about if there’s a shrinking market
for developer tools, how do we think about, first of all, our share of that market?>>Got it.>>Then secondly, are
there opportunities in adjacent markets to think about
how our product line could grow?>>So it’s really in
some ways you think that it was the business was really the lead for what you saw as an opportunity to change
the way you did your job? By devolving marketplace
of where our tools.>>Well, it’s interesting
that you say that, because now that you’re saying that, I’m like “No actually, the pivot started even earlier.” Which is when we started
to look at mobile, during the mobile pivot.>>Two thousand and.>>Two, I guess this was 2012, 2013.>>Got it.>>That’s when we had been partnering with
Xamarin as an external company, and we had released some tools
for Visual Studio Cordova, and I think while they were
good tools and they were starting to get adoption and actually we still see pretty decent traction on both, there was just a question
around we had just done the V1, how do we know we did the right V1 and what would be the appropriate V2? So at that time there was a general movement at Microsoft
to become more customer focused. So what we did is we actually brought the mobile team through a boot camp
of sorts to reboot the culture.>>Got it.>>So what happened in that is we basically started with
customer interviews. We did probably
400 customer interviews that were at least a half-hour
long in a six week period.>>Got it.>>Just with mobile developers, both our customers and those who were not our
customers at the time.>>In doing this processes
is what gives the seed of the more broad scale set of
changes that come later?>>Well yeah. This was actually something that we did not
just with the PM team, but we actually did with
the engineering team as well as the Doc team. We even brought the legal team
and the marketing team with us through this journey
because we really wanted everybody who was focused on
how can we create better mobile tooling to really
understand the customer that we were trying to target. Yeah.>>Is it fair to say
that getting into the customer obsession thing at the point where culture
of a company was shifting that effectively set
you up well for being seen somebody could lead in this space and therefore changes after
that point where?>>What do you mean?>>I’m trying to think about
this in the context of how, again sort of career focus.>>Yeah.>>So you were there at
the point where there was this insight that you started to see about what the value of this was.>>Yeah.>>I’m trying to understand
if you feel like that was an accelerator in terms of.>>I definitely do feel like
that was an accelerator. I don’t believe that. I can be super effective by having a directorial go do
this approach to my job. I think part of my job
is to basically empower my teams to be as smart as they possibly can be and to
get smarter over time. So what I found the reason that this is
an accelerator is not because I was captain of the team or
something like that at the time, but because it actually got me to think a little bit
differently as a manager about more how do I actually
empower my teams to get smart and to basically continually improve our understanding of the customer that we’re
trying to target.>>In some ways that the way
you made the more smart is by bringing the voice of
the customer into that.>>Actually, facilitating
this process. Over the past few years, we’ve really operationalized
this approach to the point where basically any investment that we’re thinking about doing starts with customer led inquiry and we continually refine it. You almost might think about it as reducing the risk of
what we’re investing in. It’s similar to lean
methodologies and other things that a lot of
folks in the valley talk about, but might not be have as much
adoption inside of Microsoft. It’s a little bit of a different way to approach product development.>>That’s awesome. So now
let’s start moving backwards. So we’ve got this thing
where it’s like you’re able to bring the information and
accelerate your whole team.>>Yeah.>>So you’re able to
make these things. I want to move backwards from there.>>Sure, okay.>>As we’re getting
closer and closer like what an early career person can take.>>Yeah. Well, the biggest pivot before that was that I
started working on Chakra, which was the JavaScript
engine that powered Edge and powers Edge before this latest strategy
switch a little bit. With that, that’s also the time period when we
started working on TypeScript.>>Got it.>>The reason that I started to
work on those things was really a pretty dramatic pivot which is that I had been working on the Office tooling and
the extensibility story for Office. We had this fantastic pitch to the Office team about
how we could improve it and basically we got some news that it was not
going to make the product, that they had cut it
from that version.>>The Office team?>>The Office team had cut it from that version of what we were planning to do for that particular era. So the project that I thought I was working
on which was going to be this massive thing ended up
being a much smaller thing. So my boss at the time
said to me, “Look, I don’t think this is a job that
is worthy of your scope anymore.” So essentially saying go
figure something else out.>>That’s interesting, almost gave the opportunity you to
go think about that. What you wanted to do
next it was a little less like, here’s this new thing.>>There is never like, “You
don’t have a job anymore.” But it was more like, “Look, this just isn’t as big
of an opportunity as we were hoping or expecting it to be. So let’s go figure out
something that’s appropriate.” So it just so happened that that very same day I happened
to be having lunch with my my mentor at the time who is Shanku Niyogi who is now
the VP of Product for GitHub, and it just so happened that that
very same day his GPM for Chakra had left her a competing company
and so Shanku was like “Hey, does this sound like something that would interest you?”I was like, “All right, sure let’s
try that.” So I did.>>Here’s the serendipity
comes to play this day.>>I think serendipity has played a massive role in my career for sure.>>Ironically, as I’m learning
from these conversations, I’m starting to have done enough that I can start to
see some patterns. It’s funny how often the answer
is well there was this reorg.>>Yeah. I mean, and I think.>>It’s not like
the reorg makes it good, it’s just that the re-org releases some energy that allows the person to find that opportunity that would develop them
to the next level.>>For sure. In this case,
it was not a reorg per se, it was just that there
was a canceling of one project and basically
a departure of another one. Even though the team
didn’t really change, for me individually
that was a big pivot.>>Got it.>>Because I had been a .NET person before that and
all of a sudden I’m in the JavaScript world
and I didn’t really know a ton about
JavaScript at the time.>>Got it.>>Yeah.>>So at that point,
was that the first time you felt like you’ve made
a major shift away from, we talked about how you have
that place where you had specialization is that’s the point where you made the decision
to being more of a generalist based on the opportunity or do you feel
you had already done that?>>That was actually
a little bit earlier.>>Okay.>>Yeah, so I think this was 2009
that I’m talking about now when I started to make the pivot
from focusing on.>>.NET?>>Well, I was really on Office
programmability before that, and then I started to focus
on JavaScript specifically. JavaScript did play a role in the pitch that we were
making to the Office team, but it didn’t require me to go super deep on these
are the intricacies of JavaScript and and
all of the dimensions of how the community is really different than the.NET community
that I was familiar with, the how, the programming language
was obviously different, how there are all these
Runtime requirements, the role that the Runtime
played in the operating system. So there were a lot of dimensions
that were really different.>>Got it.>>Yeah.>>Let’s keep going.>>Keep going backwards in time.>>Let’s keep going.>>Okay. So before that there was a transition period
where there was a reorg.>>Okay.>>Get to the reorg time. Yeah. There was
a reorg and basically, this was in the era when
I had been working on Visual Basic.NET for seven years at that point and there was
a decision to basically rather than have
Visual Basic.NET have one strategy and C#
have another strategy, there was a decision that
hey they actually are all about.NET and we should
move them both together. So with that, it meant look like Anderson Mads are
fantastic at what they do. I don’t necessarily need
to be involved in that, in driving the direction of.NET per se of the programming
language aspects of.NET. So I decided at that time that I wanted to do
something a little bit different. So I decided to move to think
about Office and Office tooling.>>I see. So is the one
where you’d say it’s like you shifted away from what you’d
started on to being able to.>>Yeah. Before that I was definitely
a programming language and editing experience and API design, that was really my focus. It was much more on programming rather than thinking
about platforms starting.>>So at this point, did you brought in
the generality of what I do? Was it more like I want
to grow my scoping? What was driving how you thought
about what you wanted to do next?>>Let’s see. This was
at least 10 years ago. So had to pay it back.>>One way to think about it is like, let’s imagine there’s someone
out there in the East. They feel like they’ve
achieved some level of that and then I feel like one
of the things in all of these stories that you’ve told us there’s this point
where you feel like you’ve accomplished what you
set out to do in that space.>>In some cases. What’s ironic about the Office story for example
is I think we still have a massive opportunity to
basically improve that and I think we’re finally coming around to the chapter where maybe
that’ll actually happen. So I guess to your question, how did I think about it? I think one of the things that
has filled my entire career is I’m very motivated by
developers, generally.>>Right.>>I actually had a recent
conversation with Kevin Scott, who’s our CTO about what drives him.>>Right.>>Because he’s
obviously rich beyond.>>How rich is he?>>He doesn’t need to pay his bills. So it’s just not a concern. So I was like, “Well, why are you still doing
what you’re doing?” His worldview is that there’s a dystopian world in tech and
a potential utopian future for tech, and what he would like to see
is that Microsoft plays a role in ensuring that we move
towards the utopian future. We ended up having a really
good conversation about that, and I think that helped crystallize how I think
about my personal mission, which is I think that developers are at the center of
any technological direction, and that to really ensure
that we are creating a world that serves a vast majority of humanity
and elevates humanity, we actually need to
have more diverse set of developers in the world.>>So through expanding your scope
generally in the universe, and developer tools that
allowed you along that mission, is that the right
connection to make or?>>Yeah, I mean, I’ve always been basically excited
about getting up every morning and just working on how I
can make developers more productive and better able to express what they’re
trying to achieve. So if I am a vehicle for the
untapped power of all developers in the world then I think that’s
a pretty great mission because if think about
how magnified that is, and just the magnitude of how amplified that is in all the developers that we’re able to reach from the Microsoft tools, that’s a pretty massive force.>>It always amazes me, that as far as we know, I think our numbers like there’s 15-18 million
professional developers.>>Twenty four.>>Twenty four is our number now.>>Yeah.>>We’re going to do it. Why I
said that number I feel good, it’s small, that’s tiny.>>Yeah it is tiny, but in terms of world standards.>>Yeah. Then in terms of what
you’re saying about amplification. You can touch.>>Yeah. But that’s pro devs.>>Yeah.>>If you think about non-pro devs, or citizen devs, or part-time devs, it’s probably more in the
50 million to 70 million range, and so that’s a lot bigger. But don’t think about it
in those terms per se.>>Think about it in terms of the software that they
build and who that reaches.>>Exactly. It’s like this idea of that there’s a lever effectively.>>Yeah.>>You found the way that through affecting their tools you
can make them more effective, which then makes
their customers more effective.>>Exactly.>>Which makes their customers
more effective.>>Right. So in that way
like I think the thing that has always driven me in my career aspirations has
been not so much like, I want to achieve some particular
title or something like that. But more just like, how could I be more effective in the
mission that I’m trying to pursue which has to make individual developers and
their teams more productive, and to bring more diverse group
of developers into the community.>>All right. Let’s
jump forward just a bit and then we’ll wrap with JSON.>>Jump back?>>Even further back.>>Yeah, okay.>>It was time travel is going
to be our late twist in this.>>Is there going to be
a graphic of at the bottom?>>Yeah. You are here. Anyways, how did you get into this? We established mission.>>Yeah.>>We’ve had this idea that
like you have that drive.>>Yeah.>>That’s what helps you
make these decisions across all of them, it’s
the pattern across.>>Yeah.>>So how do you get on
this in the first place? How did you end up finding that? Did you know at the point
where you’re picking a job?>>It was totally serendipity. I mean, I always knew I was a nerd. I came from a nerd family. My dad’s a physicist, and my brothers ended
up going into tech and nanotechnology
and stuff like that. So I knew that I wanted to do math and science as when
I was in high school.>>Got that with the morning cereal came in you used to
talk about Physics.>>Yeah. When we were kids if we wanted to end
our parents dinner parties, we would make my dad talk
about string theory.>>That’s awesome.>>It turned out the kids
were fascinated, but dad’s friends would leave. So even though many of
them were physicists.>>That’s an excellent expletive. When did you learn to be somebody? That’s great. That’s awesome.>>Yeah. So I think from
there then I decided to go to a particular
university because, hey they seem to have good stem. Then I accidentally ended up in the Computer Science 101 course because everybody said
it was really great.>>Got it.>>It turned out it was a lot of fun, and there was a bit
of a campy culture around the TAs that facilitated it. So I got into this community of CS.>>I see. I feel like almost like finding
your community in some ways. You found this group that
was around that thing.>>Yes and no. I mean, I’ve always
felt like an outsider for sure. There were definitely elements of very trying times that
is a good question, over whether or not I
should continue in it.>>I see..>>But by the time I graduated, I had become a TA to couple
of different classes. So I always felt there was this weird attitude in computer science about
how elitist it should be. That there should only be, everybody should be
a Systems Programmer, and really the only true developers
are systems programmers. I always thought that was
silly because just there’s such a massive opportunity in
terms of the power of technology, and we actually need developers in many different levels of the stack.>>Yeah.>>So the more developers that we could bring in to
the market the better. The better for business, the better for the end users and
their experience, and really the better for humanity. If you think that technology is
impacting humanity at large.>>Is that why you picked program? You started at Program Management.>>No, that was totally. I mean, I did start and
Program Management. The reason I ended up in
Program Management was entirely almost random
I mean at that time.>>The reason we go to
campus and check a box.>>The way Microsoft was like a little form and I didn’t even think I was
going to end up at Microsoft. But they gave you
a little form and there were three options with
a sentence each of, this is what you do if
you’re a developer, this is what you do if you’re a PM. This is what you do
if you’re a tester, and I was like, all right PM sounds good, so check. That’s what I did, and so I ended
up interviewing for a PM job. So it really wasn’t well thought out.>>That was a really good sentence
written on the check box.>>Because I didn’t really understand the specifics of what the role meant.>>Then, did you go like immediately know that it
was for you once you got here, and you started to get more of sense?>>No, I mean for a while, when I came to Microsoft I didn’t intend to be a lifer at Microsoft. In some ways, I’m 18 years in now. So some people might call me a lifer. I’m almost 18 years. I intended to quit after two years.>>Okay.>>Because I thought
I was going to be an academic because my dad
was a lab scientist, and that was what I conceived of
as a job. That is what you do.>>Your visualization of
what being a grownup is.>>Right, exactly. You
put in your time on some basic research and hope that eventually it turns into
something that is useful, and that’s what your job is. When I graduated, I thought I was
going to go into bioinformatics and the intersection between
biology and computer science.>>Wow, it’s very different
from what you’re doing.>>Yeah, it is, right. So when I was graduating, I thought well, being
a PhD is a long slog, it’s like six years, and you can
end up being poor during that, you don’t get paid
a ton in most places. So I was like well, all of my undergraduate internships
were scientific. They were all at labs or research facilities or
other things like that.>>More towards the path that
you thought you might take.>>More towards the academic side. I thought well, maybe I should try industry a little bit just
so that I can rule that out. Plus, it would be a good way
for me to earn a little bit of money to basically fund my lifestyle
through graduate school. So I went to the technical career
fair with 10 resumes in hand. I thought, I would hand it
out to the 10 companies or to the companies that would
pay me the most in cash. I was not interested in stocks at
the time because this was 2000 and it was right at the end of
the first.com bubble burst. So I didn’t hand it out
to Google because they were a startup at the
time and I was like, “Well, they’re going
to go under, like, I don’t want to work there, right?” So I handed it to Microsoft. I handed it to GE and I
handed it to Goldman Sachs. I ended up in the next phase of
interviews for each one of them. For a variety of reasons, I definitely didn’t want to
work at GE or Goldman Sachs. Microsoft was interesting in
part because they really tapped in on that t-angle and understood
my mission from the get-go. It actually pitched the job
to me based on that mission. So that was like
a big selling factor. In the end, it was between Microsoft and my friend’s
start-up in Providence. My friend, really, was
making a strong pitch to me. I was intrigued. But the reason that I decided
not to go for his role was because even though the salaries would have been the same actually, he wanted me to start
before I graduated. He wanted me to pull super long hours and it was in Providence which I had been in for four years and I was
ready to move cities. So Microsoft was in Seattle. They gave me a signing bonus so I
could go to Europe through with my friend before I started and they didn’t need
me to start until August. So I was like, “Sure,” I mean, I was only thinking about
this as like some cash.>>Yeah.>>Yeah. Not a career. I was not thinking about this
as the start of my career. I was thinking about
this as basically, a little bit of cash to
pad my lifestyle. Yeah.>>All right. So across this long journey that
we’ve gone on together, do you feel like you’ve got really good career advice at any point along the way that you can
particularly pass along?>>Well, first of all, I
mean, I think, for me, my mission and recognizing what gives you energy and
what actually gives you life and purpose has been the thing that has made me
excited to come to work.>>Is that just what you
felt within yourself or did you get that as advice from some, find your mission, did you
have a mentor that did that, that helped you with that or was that something that you actually
discovered yourself?>>No. I think I did discover
it myself and ironically, it probably was in the process of interviewing at Microsoft more so
than anything else. So maybe, the person I have
to credit for that is Chris [inaudible] who hired me into
Microsoft in the first place.>>Yes.>>Yeah.>>That’s really cool.>>Yeah. So I mean, I found that and I think it
just only reinforced over time. Especially, as you get into
the years when you have, I have two kids and it
crosses your mind about, “Well, should I be spending
more time with my kids? Should I be spending
more time at work?” You have to sometimes
make decisions about, “Am I motivated enough to miss a couple hours with my kids
to go to work on something?” I think if you don’t have
a sense of mission and purpose, I could imagine that
would be really hard. I don’t know what it
would look like for me if I didn’t have that. I
don’t know for you.>>Yeah. Totally. I completely agree. Indeed, one of the things
that I’m sure you like I spend a lot of time in
people around you, right?>>Yeah.>>The thing this is like, usually
what we call the [inaudible].>>Yeah.>>As appropriate person
who the last person usually talk to you
in a loop and now, I’m going to go be motivated to do a better job at
that part of the thing because I tried to do
what you said, right? Talk to the people about
what we’re doing here and to make sure that they understand
the mission and not just like, “Hey, this is a job.” Now, I feel super motivated
to go to that work. “Well, look at that 18 years later.”>>Yeah.>>That is amazing.>>What’s your mission?>>I was biting my tongue the whole time
you’re talking about developer tools to not
take over the interview.>>So feel the same way, right?>>It’s this thing about, we get to actually, nowadays, like even me in more of a Dev role, get to interact with
customers all the time. Now, especially in new Microsoft, we get the opportunity to not just have that be kept at
the people working on one operating system that we
have the ability to go and nail nearly every part of that story, and weave them together, and connect the dots.>>Right.>>Yeah. I don’t know
why you do that. I always tell people and the said come part of the conversation that was talked about
with the interviews, I always say something like, if I ever get kicked out of this joint, we’ll find another
developer tool job.>>I know. That’s what’s
been hard for me is, I really am motivated by
developers every day, right? I’ve had other
opportunities to work on areas that maybe consumers
or IT pros are my audience. I just, I can’t get quite as
excited about it, at least not yet. Maybe I will in the future. I mean, one example of a way that I can see it expanding
is if I think about the idea that my mission
and my joy comes from bringing more developers and developers from more diverse
backgrounds into the industry. In some ways, programming languages, programming tools are not necessarily the gating factor for access, right? If we think about folks
in Africa let’s say, it could be incredibly empowering to have more network access and
more reliable network access. That could actually play
a much bigger impact on the lives and make up of the future of developers
in the world than, “Did I design the right fluent API.”>>It’s funny how it’s almost
what you’re trying to do is, in the funnel of trying to get
these people developer tools, “What are the things
in the way of it?” Sometimes, it will be other things.>>Right. Exactly. So like yeah, I could see myself going
and working on things like that if I really start to believe that those are
the true gating factors.>>Okay. This is
a fantastic place to end.>>Okay.>>So I’m totally going to end here. Thank you very much for your time.>>Thank for inviting
me too. It’s been fun.>>Awesome. [MUSIC]

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