Warriors Corner #19: Long Range Precision Fires

Warriors Corner #19: Long Range Precision Fires


okay it’s miked up so good afternoon everybody and and I appreciate you coming I had this I had this I’m gonna call it a fantasy but I had this thought that the last brief on the last day that it wouldn’t be much of a turnout but but I appreciate those that are here and are interested in in the in this portfolio in this effort and I’m often asked if you know what it means to be the to be the number one priority for for modernization and in a practical sense it means that we’ve gotten a lot of resources that have been you know turned our way to achieve the modernization goals and then to take that another level it also comes with the recognition that in order to do that some very tough choices were made across the army and so the the celebration of being the number one priority ends pretty quickly when you’re sobered by the idea that now we’ve got to deliver that that our army in our nation has invested a lot in in this effort and and so I’m really relieved being relatively new in this job to have some really talented teammates and and these three are representative a much much larger larger organization that spread out over about five different locations and and and we’ll get a chance for them to to offer a few examples of what the efforts of the cross-functional team have delivered already and then we’ll keep all our remarks pretty short to turn this into more of a discussion and question and answer session so the first thing I’ll offer is that when I arrived out to Fort Sill about two months ago one of the first things that I did was sit down with the fires and field artillery concepts team out of out of the fire center of excellence and I wanted to really to make sure that one I understood where the army was going with multi-domain operations but more importantly to understand where we were going with long-range precision fires in the context of multi-domain operations and because we have to be nested maybe more than any of the other the other CFT efforts and the reason why I say that is because what we’re doing answers the fundamental question of multi domain operations which is a question of access and so our whole purpose is to enable the penetration and disintegration of enemy anti access and aerial denial systems to achieve that by developing systems that ensure overmatch and range and lethality at Ashkelon from strategic fires all the way to the tactical fires at the strategic level we’re enabling the joint force I said by penetrating and disintegrating the enemy a2/ad network and and we’ll do that with two systems we’re in support of the space and missile defense commands pursuit of the long-range hypersonic weapon and we’ll help by developing the operational concept will help by by doing all the the dot MLP F sorry for the acronym the dot MLP F work but but essentially what we’re gonna do is make sure that when that weapon system is ready to go that our soldiers trained and ready there’s a mission command structure and fire control framework that’s in place so that as soon as it’s ready in painted green it’s in the field operated by US Army soldiers and it’s achieving its deterrent effect immediately the second half of the of the strategic portfolio involves the development of a technology demonstration of a strategic long-range cannon and the reason for having these two systems is is really pretty clear when you evaluate the target set of the a2/ad systems and which we realize that that’s a mixture of very heavily defended fortified strategic infrastructure and see two sites as well as a combination of road-mobile tells radars and other lighter-skinned more area targets in certain order to achieve the the disintegration and penetration effect that that that we that will achieve we need to have a mix of effects so exquisite very expensive hypersonic missiles with tremendous kinetic effects on the strategic infrastructure and the hardened targets and then a volume of more affordable cannon projectiles at those targets the aspects of the target set that are lighter defended and and and more ro mobile so that’s the that’s the framework for the strategic end of the portfolio and I’ll quickly move through the rest of it and turn it over these gentlemen but the at the operational level we’re replacing eight a comes with a with a far more capable missile called the precision strike missile that’s already a program of record that’s that’s moving along and and Chris Mills here will describe what we’ve done to accelerate that and pull it to the left and so the CFT is really focused on the spirals so we’ll deliver an urgent material release of these missiles in in late 2020 to early 2023 and then immediately we need to begin to feel the next the spirals that’ll give us cross-domain capability that will give us Lord or ammunition type capability sensor fuse capability and so that’s that’s really what the CFT and in terms of my focus on the prism missile is about the is about the spirals and then lastly at the tactical level if in order to understand what they’re doing it might be easy to start with what we’ve got right now so if you look at our current self-propelled howitzer with a 39 calibre length tube one five five millimeter bore diameter that’s the that’s the current paladin and and if you’re here you’re probably aware of of the PIM program that’s going on right now which is this chassis upgrade to the paladin so the Orca program if so if if if PIM is the chassis upgrade for paladin then Orca is the turret upgrade for PIM and so at the end of it from the muzzle break to the track pads it’s a it’s a it’s a new howitzer probably featuring a much longer gun tube of 58 caliber length tube a redesign chamber and breech that will be able to withstand the the gun pressures to to get out to 70 kilometers of range but the thing about about Orca is that maybe makes it more complicated than the others is that it’s as much about the ammunition is this is about the armament we can’t take our current family of projectiles and shoot them 70 kilometres they’re not designed for it they won’t withstand the the board those chamber pressures and others so it involves building the next set of projectiles that will get out to 70 kilometers and then far beyond so so that’s what we’re doing in the cross-functional team they said where the tea is really is really important because it said we’ve got a lot in the portfolio and we’re working very closely I feel as much like I’m on the the the RDECOM and our deck and and amer deck teams as much as I feel as these guys feel like they’re on mine and so it’s even as and I’m not just saying that because general Murray’s here but but even as army Futures command is standing up the the ideas that it that it you know that it aspires to to put into practice are really already already already you know happening so so that’s that’s kind of a fundamental theme and in in this effort for modernization is we can’t be sequential in our approach anymore we have to work in parallel every chance so so we’ll work development of prototypes at the same time we’re you know we’re reaching the the developing the technology demonstrator so I’ll now turn it over to to Chris Mills each one of these guys who deliver sort of some practical examples of how we’ve started to move faster and then we’ll be happy to take any of your questions so it’s a good good afternoon I’m Colonel Chris Mills I’m the PM for precision fires rocket and missile systems but today and and most every day my main duty is associated with being the missile rep for the cross-functional team for a long-range precision fires what I wanted to talk to you today was about that middle line of effort which is operational fires and that’s that’s focused on the precision strike missile which is an operational fire missile one thing that confuses people a lot of the time is originally the this missile was called the long-range precision fires missile and there was some degree of confusion about the that name because there’s a capability called called the long-range precision fires there’s a CFT called long-range precision fires so it was creating confusion so leadership said we need to we need to undo that confusion so we we changed the name to precision strike missile when you hear it referred to as prism so so prism is a surface-to-surface missile system it’s a replacement of prey attack comes but it’s more than that it’s Colonel Rafferty mentioned it allows us the the cross domain maneuver that we need in an a to a dia environment suppression of enemy air defense as well as gives us the the standoff that we need so as is the system is fired from existing launchers the m270 a one-track launcher as well as the high Mars wheeled launcher and as far as the requirements and what we’re looking at as far as the design we’re ranges paramount in that a2/ad environments who are focused on on range but it’s not just range it’s about lethality and probably just as much as it’s important we’ve in this design we have two missiles per pod so that essentially doubles your firing power per launcher and essentially per battalion but it it also reduces your logistical burden and your transportation burden for that system and finally how we link in with the the CFT in is in growth potential this the system will give you the growth potential to spiral in additional capabilities and it’s Colonel Rafferty mentioned what we’re focused on is we’re building the baseline missile right now but we’re already planning and working with the Science and Technology communities in order to spiral in future capabilities to address gaps and areas we want to focus our fires portfolio in so the system the program started in earnest in 2017 with two contractors developing prototypes and at this point where the contractors are they’re at a point where they’re testing components they’ve about finalized their designs and we’re looking at a flight test in less than it in less than a year now of the precision strike missile there are several things that we’ve been focusing on with the with the contractors one is to to get the design right early because we don’t want to rush the failure but then the second thing is accelerated every opportunity so so as we go forward we we have a as Colonel Rafferty mentioned we’re planning on a early operational capability in the FY 23 timeframe late calendar year 22 and then then we’re going to start looking at what can be done as far as additional capabilities that’s the third thing we’ve been telling the contractors we need an open systems architecture and we need to be able have the the size weight and power in the missile systems to spiral in additional capabilities and and so that those capabilities can cover a gamut of capabilities improved propulsion improved navigation especially in a GPS degraded or denied environment it can include other payloads sensor seeker options that allow us to hit moving remove targets and then other other warhead options potentially against armor or IR potentially the deploy is our assets so we’re continuing to work with the SMT community and we’ve talked with with industry through over the last couple of days and over the last several months to understand the state of technology as far as as spiraling in those capabilities from my perspective we’re talking as far as successes and how the CFT has helped their it’s been pretty significant in several ways I’ll say in one way that the CFT is allowed us to accelerate the program and they’ve done that by helping us align funding not just for the baseline missile but for science and technology to defeat in to the missile it’s also helped with requirements definition and getting requirements validated and out the door more quickly because sometimes that process takes longer than it they probably should and finally we’ve got test team members that are part of the the CFT and they’ve allowed us to do our testing more efficiently and not over test the system so so those are constant success stories that and the way I see the CFT has been on positive has been positive through the to the prism program so with that I’d like to turn it over to will McDonough thanks Chris thanks for coming out like a chrome referee said we thought this might have been a ghost town by this point of time and it’s obviously not but thanks for all of your interest I do only plan on taking about four to five minutes and cover what we’re doing with the extended range cannon artillery and then I’ll turn it over to my partner in crime mic George here who’s also a Picatinny remember so yeah I’m will McDonough I make the the cannon ammunition our team makes the cannon ammunition precision guidance kit Excalibur all the mortar systems that the army employs so then also the mortar ammo and so on the ammo guy and I’m pleased to be a part of the team we make the propulsion systems we make the propellant and what that is highlighted for us is the interfaces the technical interfaces are really important but above all of that are the relationships between the different army organizations that have historically just not delivered capability when it’s needed and I think it’s just maybe my Catholic upbringing but the sooner you confess for something the sooner you can move past it and you agree that you know our success has not been high enough some will say that’s like being a Jets fan every year the Jets sit around and they’re like oh we almost won the Superbowl no you were nowhere close to winning the Superbowl so just accept that we’ve got some issues and this has been an incredible forum for us to put the issues on the table pin responsibilities down and move forward extended-range cannon artillery and Colonel Rafferty covered it we’ve got a 39 caliber system right now I’d like to turn that and say no we got a 39 caliber problem right now I was a part of the heavy Brigade Combat Team p.m. office when Powell and Penn became a real big priority the army accelerated it and the Army’s getting what it asked for several years ago and it’s gonna be a viable platform that we can upgrade more capability on the focus was on survivability we were there and we invested tens of billions of dollars in survivability during during AF and now we’re investing a lot of money into serve lethality we’re going on the offensive I’ll highlight a couple of different programs I think you’re innovative in the ways that we are getting after lafalot ii and then I’ll turn it over to Mike George after a couple of comments on why Mike and I are on the same sheet to innovative products were doing XM 11:13 is the new replacement rocket-assisted projectile round the fact is the army came out of production of the 549 a1 in 1989 were 30 years after that point in time 30 years is a long time we’re gonna go back into production on a wrap-around it’s gonna have 20 percent more impulse than the wrap-around had and so I look at that and say okay wow we’ve moved the bar 20 percent in 30 years obviously not acceptable but we’re gonna get a 40 kilometer capability and we’ve shot it out of the 58 caliber system and we’ve put holes in the ground in Yuma out to 62 kilometers and with the human improvements that will take place in the next FY we’ll put holes in the ground out to 70 kilometers so one of the things that our leadership has been adamant about is don’t talk about range show range shoot range and then you can talk about it but if you haven’t put a hole in the ground in the desert don’t advertise that you can go do it and so we’ve shot Excalibur out to 62 kilometers missed by 2 meters twice we could go Saturday that’s successful we’ve shot the X 1113 Ward and continue to test the exome 1113 we fired it about 51 52 times I’ll highlight that point because the first 51 or 52 were crate and then we had a projectile come apart in midair in previous regimes of acquisition reform this would have been a bad deal who had been a failure and had been post milestone B we would have had a breach of the program it’d have been a failed program or at least an ugly sight no we shot before MDD we shot through the S&T program with the CFT support with eyes on before the material development decision so I think this is an example of moving learning left I don’t think we can go too far further left but we are definitely moving learning to the left okay so the projectile comes apart in midair everyone looks at it we figured out why we go back in we proved out that we’ve got that fixed we had a great breakfast with a couple of companies yesterday they’re going to go right into production some of those are not hard decisions we have a contractor that runs Scranton the Scranton Army Ammunition Plant we’re gonna work load Scranton we have a company that runs the Iowa lap facility to load assemble impact facility they’re gonna lap 11 13 we’ve got a company that makes rocket greens right we used to have an entire army I’m initiative plant Joliet used to make rocket grains and bass bleeds that cut down so the market for the Rockets are pretty small but they’re turned on and so yesterday the contractors at the highest levels understand not only are we going to do 11 13 but we’re going to deliver faster and we’re gonna have precision guidance kit work with it and it’s gonna achieve about 20 meter miss out to 40 kilometers out of a 39 caliber system and then we’re going to deliver 70 kilometers out of the 58 caliber system so that I think is innovative from a technology standpoint I would also highlight that what the CFD has allowed us to do also with the army staff is when there’s innovation that needs to take place of a non-technical nature we should also be innovative and so I highlight that the bonus smart submunition the the bonus munition we have already bought it’ll go into inventory in Europe in this January of 2019 January 2019 not it might not make a lot of sense to this community but I would highlight that we got our money in May and so for nine months will you put a company on contract you developed a production facility you finalized the production facility and you deliver ammunition that’s a pretty rapid turn and there’s an innovation level there that takes place that’s not technical it’s more business management its acquisition ease it’s it’s a matter of working with the stakeholders that do the funding piece and I think nine months is a pretty good term so last point I will make is I think what the CFT has allowed us to do is to make sure that there’s no seams so Chris Mills runs the the rocket missile stuff Mike George runs the S&T side for the CFT there used to be this phrase you know the valley of death everyone’s got to be worried about the valley of death and I took a look at that and I said it’s not really the valley of death the valley is a nice natural train feature that you look at and everyone admires picatiny Piketty knees in a valley it’s a beautiful valley and everyone looks at the valley it’s a beautiful valley let’s admire the valley now what we’ve been facing is a ditch of death that different parts of the army dig deliberately whether it’s the S&T community that maybe got a little cheap on the science the technology side and didn’t want to buy down risk or the PM’s on the other side that didn’t want to accelerate at the right pace and we rushed to milestone B well the X sub 113 how we had that failure we would have had a broken program or at least a program that had an ugly start and so one of the benefits of the CFT is you’ve got the science tech technology guy you got the program manager and then the adult leadership provided by Kron Rafferty to make sure that all the parts are playing well and then go to the palm review if it doesn’t fit in the Army’s monetization strategy Colonel Rafferty will tell us it doesn’t fit and will say okay we’ll go build something else will work with our contractors to build what the army needs instead of trying to promote programs that don’t fit the strategy and so I appreciate everybody coming out I’ll turn over to Mike George who is our picatiny brethren and the SNT advisor and thanks again thank you will so a lot of the things that we’ll and Chris and Colonel Rafferty mentioned are based on the benefits of the development work and the SMT that we’ve already come to realize and so we are establishing those quick wins we are getting those out there early because we do realize an operational capability that can be provided in the near term but where are we going in the future we keep talking about modernization and so what what is modernization we have to look at what science and technology what our partners here in industry can help provide when we start looking at those component technologies how do we pull those together from an operational standpoint and bring an integrated lethal capability to the warfighter so I’ll take a step back because we’re starting to look at more of the future capabilities and where do we want to go the general Townsend made a great point today in capturing what M do 1.5 is and as we start looking at this power competition or the layers of Defense and layers of standoff we have to be the best in breed at all echelon of the fight so Colonel Rafferty mentioned the echelons of the fight that we are investing on our technology in but how do we go and make sure that our foundational work is starting to reinvest and reinvigorate where we can go that’s where we need help with our industry partners as well as looking at the decks the labs in academia and so as we start introducing these capabilities the video that you saw behind Colonel Rafferty when he was giving his opening remarks looked at some of the prototyping and the experimentation that’s really where the CFT and Army Futures Command has allowed us to bring that to the forefront we’re now informing the Future set of requirements the future set of requirements are now experimenting with these different ideas that we’re now prototyping and building from the S&T so all these pieces are well nested partners in crime are partners in cross-functional teaming we are bringing these pieces together and we’re enable we’re allowed to allowing ourselves to now enable multi-domain operate themes for the army to now go and build into its force structure context to simulate to war game to experiment and prototype and so all these things are coming together quickly we are putting more money into those game changers again we have component technologies we can go and invest in advanced energetics advanced warheads advanced propulsion advanced weapons systems airframes and so on and everyone has their niche capability that they bring to the fight but when you integrate those systems together that’s really where you start looking at that operational overmatch and so that’s where the science and technology or our partnerships with the research and development community our industry partners or even on the acquisition side as we start looking at bridging that valley or that ditch of death that’s really where we start looking at the the inherent benefits of what we can provide in a short amount of time so with that I’ll get off the stage and turn it back over to Colonel Rafferty any questions and answers all right so we’re ready to take take any questions and while uh while you’re handing out I’ll just I’ll make a comment about the science and technology deep dive that we executed last week at at at Picatinny hosted by them but brought the whole community together and we started to make you know to make I started to put together the my thinking on how we’re gonna make recommendations on our one that foundational S&T line it each one of the labs as it relates to this portfolio and then begin to start thinking about the tough choices we’re gonna make about about programs that that aren’t necessarily going to contribute or that aren’t that are getting in the way of us finishing these right now so that’s that’s the last thing I’m ready for ready for questions good see you again sir thank you for a really interesting presentation Cameron Simpson British artillery we too were 39 caliber addicts we – looking for that extended range I’d like to ask a question about the erki project as you get that extended range you start to need more guidance because the zone opens up that therefore requires more target information to go into the shells before they leave the turret what level of automation are you looking at inside that 58 caliber turret in order to deal with that complexity of ammunition so I’ll take a first whack at that and that are a role that I’m playing in in the Orca program is to push us towards more autonomous approaches to our trailer ik systems it was asked of me a couple of weeks ago whether whether or not that are in a rose RFA comment ons here – that whether or not our community is ready for autonomous artillery and I’d say that we we actually made that decision years ago with mlrs and high Mars and and the crew members are are in the front cab they’re not manipulating the sights they’re not elevating the the llm or anything so so so we’re that it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be disruptive but but but but I don’t think that’s really an obstacle which which some may may may have thought that but but we believe that that by the time we get to prototype four or five or six that will have some autonomous options in there for us to consider and as our acquisition executive proposed a week or two ago we said in terms of autonomy our tiller is probably the right place to start it’s probably much harder to get there for a direct fire weapon system for an indirect fire what indirect fire system it’s it’s probably a lot easier and I just sort of made a made a you know a comparison to mlrs which you could make an argument is semi autonomous although we’ve never described it that way so so so I’m we look at as a couple ways one is it makes the turret easier to protect right because you don’t have a bunch of crew members in there it also as a potential as we begin to trust these systems for us to actually be faster and safer and and and we’re more reliable so we’re going in that direction we don’t have a clear path yet but but we’re we’re going that way sir Thanks and another great point on that point I think where autonomy goes but where we start looking at supervised automation from a weapons perspective there’s there’s a lot of themes out there for artificial artificial intelligence and autumn and autonomy but when we start looking at weapons platforms for a crew intensive or a safety intensive environment and you start looking at supervised automation to be able to allow a platform to go and service multiple targets at a much faster rate by bringing automation in such as ammunition handling allows you to be more lethal and survivable on the battlefield and so we are investing heavily the CFT and army futures command has helped influence where we go with that roadmap to then go and help support those future combat platforms just one one add to that is I think when you were talking about the automation some of it has to do with ephemeris data and satellite data and GPS coordinates so the CFT allowed this instrument on the CFT which I’m always fascinated but I’m a statement of the obvious kind of and we looked at the intelligence community and their their input back to us a lot of our high-value targets that we’re going after have wheels and tracks and so what we’re also learning on is is GPS is not the right solution to go after those target sets and so through the CFT we’ve teed up a couple of opportunities to put different sensor packages on candid artillery and allow it to go after moving and move targets I don’t want to downplay that I mean that’s a significant shift for a community that probably relied on aviation assets to hit moving targets and so there’s a lot of learning that’s going to go on there and the CFT is a good formed to do that yeah hi Sydney Friedberg breaking defense talk to me about the schedule on prism you know you know what when you actually will have you know that first unit equipped and what the spirals are likely to be we hear things like anti-ship for example which is our packages there’s the possibility that the INF treaty goes away and then 499 km is no longer the range you want and you want options to upgrade that if that happens so sort of talk to me about what that the the notional time line is currently I’ll start and and hand it to Chris but so our first quarter FY 23 so January of 2023 will be an urgent material release of the prism missile immediately after that we want to begin to spiral in as quickly as possible all these these additional capabilities so yes yes a limited quantity of the weapon will be will be will be fielded so it’ll be an ammunition bunkers wherever we decide to put them so the spirals that we’re pursuing you set anti-ship it’s really a cross domain and what I mean by cross domain is its what its senses and I’ll let Chris get into the specifics on it but but a ship could be a target for it as an example so the so the propulsion spiral is an interesting point right because we we’re going to the limit of the INF treaty if that changes which is a discussion that I’m not part of if that changes what we’ve begun to consider is is would would there be additional room for more range out of the prison this the answer is yes and could that be improved even with additional propulsion technology the answer to that is yes so those will be spirals that we consider well so I’ll turn it over to Chris for a little more programmatic approach FY 23 as current after he mentioned it is that when we’re planning for the urgent material release and then your point was spot-on it’s when we get the missile into the hands of the soldier but what we’re trying to do with with prism is is the baseline missile is we’re calling it about this platform or the bus for future capabilities and if if we if we do it right and we put the right architecture and and have the right interfaces then we can spiral those in quickly I use for example I worked on the guided mlrs alternative warhead in into guided mlrs that’s that was a replacement of a warhead into an existing missile system it went through a program of record took six years to do that’s not what we want to do here what we want to do is to be able to rapidly roll these in and and even even while we’re building the baseline missile we’re working with S&T community and we’re pulling pulling industry in with the S&T community so that we so it’s not one of those situations where the S&T community developed something hands it off to to industry and industry completely redesigns it and then hands it over to me to into to put into the missile that’s that’s unacceptable we don’t have that time so that’s the focus propulsion initially we’re looking at additional propulsion technologies that they could extend potentially if we if if the I&M treaty decision was was made that that we could go further we’ll look at that and also not just a right right now where the the baseline missile has a fairly conventional propulsion type of capability I mean it’s similar to guided mlrs but what we’re trying well there’s there’s other capable propulsion technologies out there that may even be a leap ahead so we look at that as well and then the moving or moved targets looking at we don’t want a one-trick pony that as you mentioned goes after maritime assets that has no application against terrestrial or ground-based assets or radars so so that we’re trying to we’re trying to work though all these different potential capabilities and look at what’s what’s most mature and and then prioritize that so we can get with industry and with our S&T community and and do that integration of those files as the missile becomes available in the mid-2020s and my job is to take what Chris just talked about and what I’ve learned from industry in our labs over the last two months and turn it into a plan for these spirals in what priority and what order and to make sure that that we’re invested properly to reach those quickly while you’re happy to take the next question while we’re getting over there I’ll just say that there’s there’s one thing that I’ve a question that I’m that I’m starting to ask now and my you know my my learning in this in this job and it says I I understand technology readiness levels I understand the material readiness levels I I don’t know where how we’re measuring integration risk and how we’re how we’re doing that so that’s something that I’m really focused on Chris talked about the integration challenges of some of these sensors and things like that but but that’s something that that I think the CFT has to highlight and and address early so that when we’re timed it’s time to integrate new technology that we’re prepared to do without unnecessary delays within the cross-functional team I’m surprised that we don’t have loitering and swarming munitions with inside that considering the ranges are pretty close to the er’ka where does that fall with inside the eight cross-functional teams and do you guys have a hand to play in that but we’ve we’ve looked at at the technology and ideas from under Street partners on on swarming and loitering munitions artillery delivered so it’s it’s something that we’re addressing within the CFT it could be one of those spirals I’m not convinced that we’re we’re there yet but it’s it’s definitely something that that we want to present as an SAT investment in the future yeah okay Sydney I’ve had people give me [Music] we can juggle these two up a pause Allah nation for why a hypersonic weapon that skips in out of the atmosphere isn’t covered by an effort it’s not truly ballistic or truly cruise I don’t think the Russians will buy that but it’s it’s an argument you could make in international law how does the cannon launch munition get through how can is that possibly INF compliant because of how it operates or is that something we’re doing R&D allowed by the treaty to do R&D on non-compliant systems but we will only field if as the ambassador said recently you know if the if we really have to we we’ve gotten the the initial ruling that we can proceed and and we believe that the the cannon will be compliant with the treaty and there is a way to describe I don’t want to address the the technology or the approach to it in this in this forum but we’re confident in its compliance so it’s different from hypersonic and in the way it’s it meets the treaty of limitations but but it does that’s all I really want to say here about that I think we got time for one more all right well that’s it for us and and we’ll be around I think we’ve got a media event after this although some of it probably got covered by Sydney here but but thank you again for your time and your interest in the in the program

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